Naked Wrestler

Fighter Beauty, or, A True Test of Toughness


I found this pic on the site.

This beautiful buffed dude has just had a fight. A little bit bloodied. He's got some FINE DNA in his man-load for sure.

I think a variation on MMA could be started where the fighters wear the small mma gloves and hit only to the the boxing the Greeks did. The fights really would not last very long. And they would not pose the danger that boxing does, for that reason. Boxing today is "dangerous" BECAUSE it has so many rounds and matches go on for so long. My trainer said that once. Boxing with the padded gloves actually IS dangerous because of the continued pounding by a spongy glove, that does not end the fight quickly.

Also, using small gloves hitting only to the face, the fighters would not need cups or, shorts for that matter, as there would be no "low blows."

The buffed guys could face off naked with hard ons of course. And the fights would be very fast and furious. I would imagine that the Greek boxing matches didn't last very long. Hitting to the face decides stuff very fast.

(That's also why I've noticed that beach wrestling is short and quick, involving only the Greeks.)

The pic of that fighter brings back another memory:

There used to be a super nice guy, a super buffed lean black guy, who used to come into our family auto parts store, when I was in high school and in college. Over the years I got to know a LOT of people in the Hood where our store was. There was something that transcended race: it was male-ness. Testicles and penises make us men.

This dude had told me occasionally that he and his "buddies" would regularly meet up on Friday or Saturday nights in the basement of a house, and have fights where they hit only to the face. Bare Knuckle.

I was SUPER interested of course.

But I was in the homo-phobic world there in the world of retail family business. Homo-phobia can be VERY overpowering. VERY controlling.

He also said that, sometimes, they would stand face to face and take hits to the face from their opponent. It was a contest to see how much they could take, it wasn't some sort of faggot S&M thing. It was a true test of toughness, manli-ness. It was not the enjoyment of pain. It was the thrill of toughness.

(I think the Ancient Greeks did this at the Palaestra.)

He said that they would alternate, until one man "submitted" to the other, with all the other dudes in the group standing, lining the walls, and waiting their turn... Boys will be boys. I had never heard of anything like that, but it sounded SOOO cool. I burned to know if they got naked. Did they get hard-ons? Did they face off like you see boxers then (or MMA fighters now, face to face, nose to nose, eyes to eyes, pecs2pecs, abs2abs)?

Did they occasionally stand hardon2hardon before they stepped back and started socking each other to the face like real men? Balls2Balls like real men?

The whole thing could give me a boner just to hear about it. I'd go jack off in the bathroom and get it out of my system... for a while. So I could go back to work.

And males who worked on cars back then were free to walk into a parts store shirt-less, at-will on HOT summer days. The man-sweat and man-muscles of lean, hand-working car mechanics was all around me in the parts store.

Now....this guy was a shade-tree mechanic and had no money. So when he did fight, he got beaten up and that was that. Fighting is about surviving as much as it is about winning and all the rest of it. Obviously he had no medical care, except for being able to go to the Veterans Hospital since he had served in the army.

However, he had a body to die for. And he never wore a shirt on hot days. In fact it didn't even have to be hot, just a little sunny. He'd come in shirtless. Glistening. The sweat would glisten off of his lean muscular skin. He looked like a chocolate statue. DARK chocolate. LEAN. VERY lean, dark muscle. Not tall at all. You could see the striations of every muscle on him. He showed a full 8-pack, yes, an 8-pack. He had the type of abs that are offset, left side to right side. NO fat on the dude.....NONE. Eventually he had missing teeth, which I now presume were from the fights. He did come in the store occasionally with a bruised up face. He had a beauty to him. A fighter beauty.

HOW I wanted to step into his masculine world......just one weekend.

He would say he got hit in the face. He'd grin. He'd show missing teeth. And if it wasn't busy, I'd walk out to his car with him. His masculinity attracted me. It was a gentle masculinity, friendly, always ready to help you out. I was attracted to his beauty and his fight talk. He was MAN.

Occasionally, outside in the parking lot, I would tell him about wrestling, and that they did some boxing at the University, where I was going. I remember boxing as something I burned to try out, but felt completely out of my comfort zone even checking into it. That's how the conversation of underground fighting came up with him and me, as we walked to the parking lot to his car. Man2Man. I realize now, how it was his way of inviting me in. I didn't respond. I was afraid.

Eventually I moved on to a different line of work after finishing school. I would see him at the store coincidentally, from time to time. He might have felt intimidated for being black. And that I had gone to college, blah, blah, blah. I admired HIM....So much. There was NO femininity to him. Every male wants to be masculine.

Time passed.

He died a few years ago from cancer which had started in his lungs, and had spread. He was a smoker, a couple packs per day. Damn cigarettes.

He died at the Veteran's Hospital... and since he was penniless and had no family of his own, to my knowledge there was not even a service for him. His body was used for medical school training. At least that was the story I heard through the grapevine.

Bobby was such a man. I burned to tell him how much I admired him. His physical beauty as well as his fighting. How beautiful he was. How I always saw the gentle, beautiful masculinity radiate from him. He always had a smile. The missing teeth and scars on the face said: I've had a few fights. I've taken hits. I've bled a few times. I'll be your buddy.

When he died, I felt a terrible hurt. A silent hurt, that I could tell no one about. It was OUR thing, so to speak. And I should have participated. I do remember us talking about how fighting (and wrestling I was doing at school) seemed to connect you with the guy you were fighting. I couldn't understand it at that time. But I felt it. I totally felt it.

I unknowingly was figuring out male-ness from these male-male experiences I was having.

His name was Bobby Jones. He was exactly my size, 20 years ago. We were the same age also. How I wish I could have met up with those guys and tried that out. JUST ONCE. I always wonder if they stood naked sometimes for these fights or if they jacked off and shot cum after their bouts. Bobby was SUCH a man to look at. And he was such a gentleman. ALWAYS Polite.

His beauty pointed to ONE thing: some beautiful DNA in a set of testicles in his black ball sack, which I never got to feel-up or look at.

We knew for awhile that he was dying. He freely admitted that he had cancer. He never did stop smoking. And I managed to do the manhug with his still beautiful body, a few times. Some people call it "the bro-hug." Whatever it's called, men should hug. When men touch, pecs2pecs, they experience a manliness. Do it some times. It's good stuff.

I thought of Bobby when I saw this pic. Bobby looked buffed like this guy. Only Bobby was a very dark skinned black. I can still jack off at night thinking about what it must have been like to fist-fight him and wrestle with him on the rug of some basement apartment. To do the MAN-thing with a MAN.

Bobby, I think you were beautiful.

I should add that Bobby never was married, never had any kids that I know of or never had a girlfriend. He was a lone, masculine male, into manly suff. The Man-vibes I got off the dude, up until the end, were intense.


Bill Weintraub

Re: Fighter Beauty, or, A True Test of Toughness


Thank you, NW, for this truly beautiful memoir.

Guys, this post from NW, like all his posts, is worth reading and re-reading -- and I hope you'll do that.

And it's interesting and very affirming to see what I think of as an ancient Greek attitude towards Fight Sport appearing in a modern American city.

Because you can see the connection for Bobby -- as well as NW -- between Virtue and Fighting.

I'm working on a post about that right now --

but you've already heard about it in The Strife of Valour, in which Xenophon -- the Athenian aristocrat turned mercenary turned Spartan insider -- explains how Lycurgus, the Spartan law-giver, arranged for what we would call gang fights between groups of young men, the purpose being to produce Men who were Virtuous and Valorous in defense of the Spartan state.

Xenophon says that this Fighting is the

kind of strife that is dearest to the Gods, and in the highest sense political -- the strife that sets the standard of a brave man's conduct; and in which either party exerts itself to the end that it may never fall below its best, and that, when the time comes, every member of it may support the state with all his might.

"the kind of strife that is dearest to the Gods"

Xenophon, as we saw in Man2Man in the Middle East, was very religious -- what the Greeks called "pious."

And when he says that this Strife of Valour is dearest to the Gods -- he's imparting a huge value to it.

He also says that the purpose of the Strife was that "the young men together ... would reach a high level of manly excellence."

And the word he uses for "manly excellence" is andragathia -- which is "andros" -- man -- plus -- "agathos" -- good.

Manly goodness.

Manly excellence.

Because agathos is actually just the adjectival form of Areté -- which means excellence and virtue and manliness and nobility.

And which is the highest value to the Greeks.

So Xenophon's talking about the Spartan Strife of Valour producing the highest level of Manly Areté.

And there's nothing higher than that -- in his value system.

Nor should there be in ours.

Indeed, in the Republic, says classicist Werner Jaeger, to go along with concepts like democracy and oligarchy, and in order

to describe Sparta, Plato coins a new concept, timocracy, 'the rule of honour,' because it is entirely founded on the standard of honour...

And although Plato is critical of aspects of the Sparta of his day, there's no question, that, as Jaeger says, "The nearest to the ideal Republic, Plato thinks, is Sparta."

So Xenophon is not alone in his high opinion of Sparta and the Spartan system.

And he's joined in that opinion by other Greek writers, among them Plutarch, who says that the Spartan law-giver Lycurgus

thought that the happiness of an entire city, like that of a single individual, depended on the prevalence of virtue [areté] and concord within its own borders. The aim, therefore, of all his arrangements and adjustments was to make his people free-minded, self-sufficing, and moderate in all their ways, and to keep them so as long as possible.

His design for a civil polity was adopted by Plato, Diogenes, Zeno, and by all those who have won approval for their treatises on the subject, although they left behind them only writings and words.

Lycurgus, on the other hand, produced not only writings and words, but an actual polity which was beyond imitation, and because he gave, to those who maintain that the much talked of natural disposition to wisdom exists only in theory, an example of an entire city given to the love of wisdom, his family rightly transcended that of all who ever founded polities among the Greeks.

And I remind you guys too that in Man2Man in the Middle East, we quote Xenophon's descriptions of male-male love affairs -- Eros -- at the highest levels of Spartan society -- among the Spartan kings and the Spartiatai -- the full-blooded Warrior class of Sparta.

So these guys would Fight each other -- and we should note that boxing, which the Spartans were said to have invented, was particularly popular at Sparta --

and they would also Love each other.

Fighting and Loving.

Agon and Eros.

Ares and Eros.

That was the Life of a Greek Man.

NW says of the bare-knux bouts of Bobby and his budz that these were "fights where they hit only to the face."

And NW says,

It was a true test of toughness, manli-ness. It was not the enjoyment of pain. It was the thrill of toughness.

That's what was going on with the Spartans too.

The legend was that the Spartans had invented boxing because they didn't want to wear helmets into battle -- and they wanted to practice dodging blows:

Boxing was an invention of the Lakedaimonians [Spartans], which was adopted by the barbarian tribe of Berbrykians, and [the Spartan] Polydeukes was best at the sport; from these facts the poets made up their songs. The ancient Lakedaimonians boxed for the following reason: They had no helmets, nor did they think it was proper to their native land and Spartan ways to fight in helmets. They felt that a shield, properly used, could serve in the place of a helmet. Therefore they practiced boxing in order to know how to ward off blows to the face, and they hardened their faces in order to be able to endure the blows which landed.

~Philostratos, On Gymnastics

"they hardened their faces in order to be able to endure the blows which landed."


It was a test of toughness.

Toughness among Men who, at the same time, could be very gentle with each other.

Spartans Kastor and Polydeukes, the boxer

As NW says of Bobby:

His masculinity attracted me. It was a gentle masculinity, friendly, always ready to help you out. I was attracted to his beauty and his fight talk. He was MAN.

That's what I've always seen -- with a couple of exceptions -- in Fighters.

"a gentle masculinity, friendly, always ready to help you out."

People don't understand that.

In our heterosexualized society, all Fight Sport, any male aggression, is suspicious, and Fighters are assumed to be thugs.

But in my experience that's not true.

What I've seen is a gentle and friendly masculinity, and great camaraderie, among Fighters.

Finally, NW tells us that, like a Spartan, Bobby was a soldier.

And that he appeared to have spent most of his life in the all-male world of the mechanic and the fight clubs.

So although he lived in a heterosexualized society, he avoided heterosexualized milieu.

That he never married -- We can't know for sure what that means.

As I've explained to you guys, and will again, ancient Greeks both married and had same-sex love affairs.

Often concurrently.

The two were not seen then, and should not be seen now, as mutually exclusive.

But as NW says, Bobby was "into manly suff. The Man-vibes I got off the dude, up until the end, were intense."

And my partner Patrick, who's "bi," and who was a street fighter and pro kick-boxer, has told me that the toughest and best-built street fighter in his neighborhood was a black guy who identified as "homosexual" but not as "gay."

By which he meant that he didn't do anal.

Jimmy was his name, and Patrick says he was the one guy you always wanted on your side -- in a Fight.

Thank you NW.

A very moving and beautiful memoir.

From a true Warrior.

Bill Weintraub

February 15, 2010

© All material Copyright 2010 - 2023 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.


Re: Fighter Beauty, or, A True Test of Toughness


MMA's popularity has some men afraid. They think it's too gay. Tattooed, half naked men undeterred by their flesh-on-flesh competition has disturbed sissified so-called heterosexuals.

Strange, isn't it, that the straight guy who's so adverse to gay has such a "gaydar" (odd term)?

Well, perhaps the straight guy's eye for things gay isn't so strange.

Perhaps the straight guy projects who/what he is, and maybe who/what he is equips him with a "gaydar."


Also by Warrior Redd:

Warriorhood and Male Intimacy

Our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor

fasting church

Heterosexism's encroachment on masculinity

Affirming the masculine

Heterosexism's control over masculinity

To see masculinity and masculine love as sacred

Plus replies to many, many posts on our Man2Man Alliance Personal Stories message board.

Bill Weintraub

Re: Fighter Beauty, or, A True Test of Toughness


Thank you Redd.

Guys, Redd sent me these comments independent of NW's memoir, but I wanted to add them to this thread.

Redd says,

Strange, isn't it, that the straight guy who's so adverse to gay has such a "gaydar" (odd term)?


"Gaydar" is an odd and actually chauvinist term.

It takes something which is natural to ALL MEN -- the awareness of male attraction to other males -- and tries to turn it into something which is unique to an allegedly tiny "sexual orientation" -- "gay."

But, in reality, as our Warrior says,

Male sexual desire for other men cannot be tied down to a minority group. Rather it is a universal male phenomenon, especially strong among masculine men.

So this is a UNIVERSAL Male phenomenon.

Which "gay" has tried to ghettoize through terms like "gaydar."

There is no gaydar.

There are just guys -- who are normally and naturally attracted to other guys.

Like Redd says

Well, perhaps the straight guy's eye for things gay isn't so strange.

Perhaps the straight guy projects who/what he is, and maybe who/what he is equips him with a "gaydar."


In our culture, a straight-identified guy isn't supposed to be attracted to other guys.

But he is.

Not because he's secretly "gay."

But because he's a MAN.

The unwillingness of our society to acknowledge that simple fact is what gives rise to uneasiness about and often condemnation of Fight Sport -- which is a skin-on-skin male-male activity -- and particularly intense in Mixed Martial Arts.


In NW's memoir, Bobby is involved in an underground subculture of bare knuckle fighters.

It's marginalized -- relegated to the shadows, and hidden from view.

Yet we know from the Greeks that this is a normal male activity.

And these Fights are what give Bobby his radiant and gentle Natural Masculinity.

As NW says

How I always saw the gentle, beautiful masculinity radiate from him.

So -- our society is wrong about both male-male attraction and male-male aggression.

Both are ghettoized.

Yet in ancient Greece -- which is the foundation of Western Culture -- both were CORE.

They were public, they were central --

And they overlapped.

The Palaistra -- the Fight School -- was where much of male-male courtship took place.

As we can see in the opening lines of the very charming Platonic dialogue Lysis:

I was on my way straight from the Akademy to the Lykeion by the road that runs outside and alongside the city walls. When I came to the little gate at the spring of Panops [that's Hermes Pan-ops = Hermes All-Seeing], I ran into Hippothales son of Hieronymos and Ktesippos from the deme [township] Paianiea together with a group of other teenagers standing around. Hippothales saw me and said, "Hi, Sokrates! Where are you coming from and where you headed?"

"I'm going from the Akademy straight to the Lykeion."

"Why don't you turn in here and come straight to us?"

"Where?" I asked. "And who is with you?"

"Here," he said, showing me an enclosure opposite the city wall, and a door standing open. "We pass our time here -- we and many other beautiful [kaloi -- handsome and worthy, handsome and noble] boys."

"What is this place?" I asked. "And how do you pass your time exactly?"

"It's a Palaistra," he answered, "recently built, and we pass our time in discussions which we would be glad to share with you."

"Good show!" I said. "But who is the didaskalos [resident teacher] here?"

"Your old buddy," he replied, "and admirer, Mikkos."

"By God, he is no dummy, but a proper sophist."

"Why don't you come along and see who all is here?"

"First I would prefer to learn the terms of entry and who is the local handsome [kalos = handsome and worthy, handsome and noble] youth."

"We each have our own favorite, Sokrates."

"And who is yours, Hippothales? Won't you tell me?"

He reddened at the question and I said, "Hippothales son of Hieronymos, there is no need to say whether or not you are in love -- I see for myself that you are. In everything else I may be a poor useless creature, but there's one gift I have somehow from God -- to be able to recognize quickly a lover and a beloved."

He reddened even more when he heard this and then Ktessipos said, "What a joke, Hippothales, that you blush and hesitate to tell Sokrates his name. If Sokrates spends another ten seconds with you he will be bombarded by you with the name in any case."

"Let me tell you, Sokrates, that our ears are numb from being hit with 'Lysis this and Lysis that': and if Hippothales has had a bit to drink, we are apt to be roused from a deep sleep with the name 'Lysis' ringing in our ears. And his talk about Lysis is bad enough, but he drowns us with poems and love letters. But worst of all is when we have to listen to him singing -- in his fine voice -- the praises of his boyfriend. And now he blushes with a question from you?"

[A few moments later, Sokrates and his friend enter the palaistra and see Lysis in the apotyderion, or undressing room, with a group of other boys:]

... One of these was Lysis, who stood among the boys and young men wearing a garland on his head and had a distinct appearance, worthy to be called not just beautiful [kalos], but imbued with kalokagathia -- [nobility and goodness].

~translated by Stephen Miller

So -- the Palaistra is both a wrestling school -- and a place where youths and men engage in male-male courtship.

And in training in Fight Sport, as we said.

And also, as Hippothales says, in discussions -- sometimes light-hearted of course, but often philosophical.

So that it was from the Palaistra that the Academy -- the school itself -- developed.

So much so that classrooms were grouped around the Fight Pits -- as we talked about in Excellence, Honor, and the Moulding of Men and as you can see in this schematic:

Here's a description of the ideal Palaistra taken from Vetruvius, a Roman architect of the late first-century BC;

which is to be found in Ancient Greek Athletics, a book by the same Stephen Miller who translated that bit of the Lysis, and who's a professor of classical archaeology at UC Berkeley.

(And a tip o' the hat to NW for turning me on to Professor Miller's book.)

Professor Miller:

Vetruvius begins his specifications for the ideal palaistra with a large central courtyard, open to the sky and surrounded by roofed colonnades. The ancient name of this area was self-descriptive: peristyle (surrounded by columns). Although he does not say so, we know that this area would have been filled with skammata, the pits where boxers, wrestlers, and pankratiasts practiced. Indeed, the word palaistra was derived from pale (wrestling), and the connection of the building with wrestling was always understood.

Next Vetruvius prescribes single colonnades on three sides, with a double colonnade on the north to protect the room behind from storms and sun. Behind the single colonnades he set exedrai (bays) with seats where classes would be held in philosophy, rhetoric, and other disciplines. One wall of the exedra would be open, and this opening usually would have columns to support a roof. There are many of these in the palaistra at Olympia, some with benches attached to the three solid walls (see rooms VI, VIII, XVIII), and some without (see rooms V, VII, XVII). These introduce us to the fundamental feature of the palaistra-gymnasion; it is a place where the mind as well as the body is exercised and trained.

In the middle of the north side of the courtyard, behind the double colonnade, Vetruvius recommends setting an especially large exedra with seats. This is the ephebeion, where the ephebes -- the young men training to become citizens -- receive their lessons about the heritage and traditions of their homeland [city-state]. This corresponds to room XII at Olympia.

Ruins of the Palaistra at Miletus

Artist's reconstruction of the Palaistra at Miletus
showing the skamma, the peristyle, and the classrooms

Working out at the palaistra.
On the left, wrestlers and their trainer; to the right, a boxer wraps his hand in soft leather thongs,
while another athlete softens the sand of the fight pit -- the skamma -- with a pickaxe.

Vetruvius, via Professor Miller, goes on to describe a room for coating the skin with dust, a room with a small bath or pool, and a punching-bag room.

Professor Miller also notes that every palaistra would have had an apodyterion, or undressing room -- because the guys excercised in the nude. In the schematic from Olympia, he thinks it would be room V, which is located between the two entrances on the south side of the building.

athenian ephebes train at the palaistra
the view is from the apodyterion or undressing room

cut-away of the apodyterion at Nemea

So: Professor Miller tells us that

  • [The central area of the school] "was filled with skammata, the pits where boxers, wrestlers, and pankratiasts practiced. Indeed, the word palaistra was derived from pale (wrestling), and the connection of the building with wrestling was always understood";

  • "The fundamental feature of the palaistra-gymnasion [is that] it is a place where the mind as well as the body is exercised and trained"; and

  • At the center of the Palaistra is the Fighting Pit or Pits [skamma = singular, skammata = plural] where wrestlers, boxers, and pankratiasts work out.

And we'll look a lot more closely at the second point -- that "the palaistra-gymnasion ... is a place where the mind as well as the body is exercised and trained" -- in a forthcoming post.

For now, the important point is that the exedrai, the classrooms, had walls which were open to the central courtyard, so that guys fighting, and fighting nude, were ALWAYS on view.

And that to me is really the core point:

That at the center of the Palaistra, and therefore of Padeia -- education -- was a Fighting Pit.

That the Greek idea of Excellence and Virtue, Areté, flows from Ares, the Warrior God:

From the same root [ARES] comes areté [excellence] ...the first notion of goodness being that of manhood, bravery in war; cf. Lat. virtus.

And that classical education, the Molding of Men, *literally* centered on Fighting.


The Fight Pits are in the large courtyard at the center of the palaistra;
there are classrooms on either side of the courtyard;
the ephebeion (XII) is on the north side and the apodyterion (V) on the south.

And let's not forget either that in every Palaistra there was a Herm.

A Phallic symbol.

A Phallic God.

A Boxer stands victorious in the Palaistra.
On the left is a herm -- unfortunately, the phallus has been broken off.
The boxer holds a palm branch and a ribbon, both signifying victory,
and wears a boxing glove on his left arm.
1st century AD Roman terracotta.

That Hermes, Herakles, and the Dioscuri -- Kastor and Polydeukes -- were the guardian gods of the Palaistra.

That religious ceremonies and rites took place there.

A victorious athlete and Nike join in crowning a herm -- ca 430 bc

And that both Phallus and Fighting were deemed Sacred.

The Goddess Olympia Contemplates Two Fighters

Phallus and Fighting.

At the center of the Palaistra was a Fighting Pit.





pankratiasts and the goddess nike

nike crowns a victorious fighter

Classical education, the Molding of Men, *literally* centered on Fighting.


Our culture chooses to turn a blind eye to all that.

And to Men like Bobby.

Our culture is suspicious of both Phallus and Fighting.

And of Men like Bobby.

Fortunately, there are other Men -- like NW and Redd -- who see their fellow Men, their fellow Fighting Men -- in all their radiant, gentle, and beautiful Masculinity.

Thank you both Redd and NW.

True Warriors.

Bill Weintraub

February 28, 2010

© All material Copyright 2010 - 2023 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.

Related articles:

Sex Between Men: An Activity, Not a Condition

Warriorhood and Male Intimacy

a sick society that forces men to repress their natural, wholesome feelings of love for each other

The Right to Fight

And guys, for those of you who are new to the site, Naked Wrestler, aka NW, has wrestled and trained in mixed martial arts, and has many very important posts on our Man2Man Alliance sites, including:

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